03/26/1906
BERNARDO VEGA INTERVIEW
The Dominican historian and economist, concludes the book on the war in April 1965
Vetas .- César Herrera in 1986, in an interview revealed that Trujillo was intended to conquer the territory of Haiti, Haiti. Trujillo was said that he knew the book of Gaspar de Arredondo and that Pichardo chronicling the genocide of the army of Dessalines in Moca and Santiago.
Bernardo .- It was Caesar, right?
César Herrera ...
do not know where Caesar obtained that evidence, but I do not share them because I find no evidence. On the occasion of the massacre of 37, published Dominican exile-that I reproduce in my book "Trujillo and Haiti," I believe that Volume II, you could check, the Dominican press reported that he had picked up a statement of Trujillo Santiago said that they threw down the gauntlet to the Haitian to see if they accepted the challenge, and if he had accepted he would have invaded. However, I searched the newspapers of Santiago and Santo Domingo at that time and none include this statement Trujillo.
The American minister does it reflect that, nor the British minister. So for me it was an invention of Dominican exiles, who frequently invented things for political purposes. For example, in my book, Nazism, fascism and phalanges in the Dominican Republic "interviewed a Puerto Rican journalist in the year 1941, Trujillo accused of supporting Hitler, and he told me that all this was invented as a strategy politics of the time but had no basis.
not make much sense Trujillo invaded Haiti. To do what would invade Haiti?: To proclaim the owner of Haiti and Haitians?, That made no sense.
Trujillo The key objective in relation to Haiti was to stop the anti-Trujillo exiles could operate near the border and attack from Haiti and criticized in the press in Haiti. And that he did at an early date in 1932, bribing the Interior Minister Elie Lescot, who later became president of Haiti. Having achieved that had not no other reason for it inroads militarily in Haiti.
Victor Grimaldi is what makes the revelation in an interview with Cesar Herrera in Listin Diario published in 2004.
Don Cesar Herrera was a non-fabulous. If Trujillo said that, I accept it. But I have told Trujillo as a way to impress Caesar Herrera, but obviously I do not think so. Trujillo had an impact on the Haitian military through bribery of government officials and journalists paid to Haitians. But to invade Haiti, after the massacre, when he received so much negative publicity, not that. Trujillo was besieged by the international press and by the U.S. government itself because of the killing, so much so I opted to accept a low profile and not to run for the presidency in 1938, but began to Peynado.
So no sense to invade Haiti, because that would have caused all a very negative reaction of all the countries of Latin America and the United States and Roosevelt would have been very bad. At that time the U.S. had serious problems in Europe and the emergence of an early invasion of the Caribbean would have been totally counterproductive and inconvenient to U.S. interests Trujillo and consequently would have been very bad. I do not see any logic to that Trujillo alleged intention to invade Haiti.
Let me refer to my book "Trujillo and Haiti", Volume II, where he speaks how Anselmo Paulino, on instructions from Trujillo, created the false alarm and the rumors about a Dominican invasion. That was in October 1937, just days after the massacre. It was then a rumor Express, run by Trujillo made and collected in my book. Includes also the dramatic application for assistance from President Vincent to Washington in late October for fear of an invasion, in the light of a report that he sent the Minister Carrié, which incorporated some of those false rumors started running Trujillo as a way to pressure the Haitian government in a time when they would start negotiations related to the killing.
has been much speculation about the death toll for the massacre of 1937.
As the number of dead, "Trujillo and Haiti", Volume II, chapter nine, I do an analysis of three pages that lists all the statistics offered in this regard and clearly indicate that as Over time the number of alleged deaths is increasing. I have a picture that shows on October 25 37 were talking about five thousand dead, and by December of that year the maximum figure was six thousand. But as time has passed new figures have been offered, the highest spoke of between fifteen and twenty thousand, cited in the year 1993. Today we talk about higher figures. In an article in The New York Times, November 20, 2005, speaks of 37,000 Haitians. It is a record but it may be that the journalist confused and spoke of 37 thousand have happened in 1937.
The conclusion I reached, based on an analysis of the number of Haitians in the country according to 1935 census and other sources (such as over the border after the killing) is that the death toll was about six thousand. I compare what are statistics of the census of 1935 with the number of people who crossed the border. The customs of the Americans controlled at that time, the customs of Montecristi and Dajabón. There were American officials and they report the number of people who crossed into Haiti on the occasion of the massacre. That is, with these data, more people taking boats in Puerto Plata, etc., plus various census figures is that arrived at the figure of six thousand. Trujillo himself as part of their propaganda was responsible for increasing the death toll and the Dominicans in morbidity continue to rise missing number after Trujillo.
And Haitians, many in exile, who have an ongoing campaign against the Dominicans, also increase the number.
The earliest figure is the October 8, 1937, said they were more than five hundred, and were adding. But after the death of Trujillo, Rufino Martinez says he was more than ten thousand Crassweller Robert says they are between fifteen and twenty thousand; Bernard Diederich says he is twenty thousand Lil Despradel won the award, saying they were 35 000. I asked her where she got the figure and said that he told his uncle Robert Despradel.
Joaquin Balaguer mentioned 17 000. Eduardo Latorre mentioned 20 000. Susy Castor between 18 thousand and 25 thousand. Franklin Franco about ten thousand. Danilo de los Santos and Valentina Peguero between twelve thousand and twenty-five thousand. Nicholas Silfa mentioned 20 000. Frank Báez Evertz over twelve thousand. A Haitian historian called Roger Dorcenvil in 1986 speaks of 26 000. I have prepared some tables with different figures that show how it has been exaggerated and I truly believe that did not exceed six thousand.
An interesting question is where are the bodies. Because I worked as an archaeologist searching for bodies of Amerindians, as they have many other Dominicans, and we dug up bodies of dead Taino five hundred years ago How can that not be displayed or a body of a dead Haitian crisis in 1937?
But there was killing. In the South there was killing in 1938, ie after the massacre in the Northwest in late 1937, there was killing in 1938.
Of course, the killing did not occur in places where there were cane-cutters, as in the plantations of Puerto Plata, much less in the East and those of Barahona. Trujillo respect that, not to create problems for U.S. economic interests and twenty days after the end of the massacre and representatives of the American mills were braceros in Haiti looking for cutting cane. So it was a massacre limited to certain places and certain types of Haitians. Despite that Haitian migration is very high, cutting the cane and agricultural work.
In 1991 or 92 I remember you posted a public position on this issue considering the improvement in working conditions, expanding technology, modernization, so they could attract Dominicans, you then saying that one way to develop the country was using labor Dominican specialized tech so that they could get to the mechanization.
In 1933, the fall of the dictatorship of Machado, the Cuban trade unions and the government pressured Machado successor to deport all cane cutters Jamaicans and Haitians, about 30 thousand. Since then, Cubans cut their cane, white, mulatto or black. Here there is a perception that only the short black cane. You should go to Cuba to see that this is not true. If you want to go further go to Australia to see that all the cane do not cut beyond the native aborigines, but the descendants of whites.
I would like to talk about Peña Batlle, who you wrote some articles ...
he wrote about a book, titled "The liberal stage."
You are so strong in the trial Peña Batlle, despite his earlier claims to trujillismo. Racism is criticized him, maybe it was a phenomenon of the moment. What can you defend Peña Batlle?
Peña Batlle I think is a tragic figure. Very young was very active against U.S. military intervention of 1916 to 1924 with the Nationalists. In the government of Horacio Vasquez participated in the arrangements for defining the frontier and wrote a lot in the press, publishing books, and suddenly there Trujillo and his contribution to the literature virtually disappears. From 1930 to 1939 hardly write anything in the Dominican press and even a few books. It was a quiet opposition to the dictatorship of Trujillo, was not involved in any plot or went into exile.
When he finally decides to collaborate with Trujillo in 1939, bad luck for him, if you do so, that time coincided with two things: the enthronement of the ideas Falange in Spain and the beginning of a campaign Trujillo against the Haitian government, which lasted between 1941 and 1946. Since 1930 until 1938 Trujillo did not allow to criticize the government or the people of Haiti.
But then in 1941 President Lescot emerged in Haiti, whom he had bribed from 1932, and he turned against Trujillo and decree prohibits the shipment of sugar cane cutters to the Republic DR.
This begins a very hostile campaign against Haitians Trujillo ending with the disappearance of the Lescot government in 1946.
Consequently, antihaitianism Trujillo (up in Dominican literature, emerged as novel anti-Haitian) are limited to the period from 1938 to 1946, mostly 1941 to 1946. Was observed before or after an official policy of criticism of the Haitians. Antihaitianism Trujillo was circumstantial, depending on timing.
You have referred to as "lost generation" of intellectuals Trujillistas, those that joined Trujillo.
for me are the lost generation of intellectuals in the Dominican Republic, those who stayed here, generation lost because he could not speak.
spoke in favor of Trujillo.
course, most unfortunately, was expressed in favor of Trujillo, many did so out of opportunism, they knew that these laudatory phrases were a way of keeping their jobs, not many of them believed necesariamene in the background what they were saying ... Anyway it was a lost generation because it could not be expressed as that may have wanted to express. You compare what they wrote before 1930 and after that went to trujillismo and notice the difference.
I think the generality of the intellectuals Dominican linked to local historians have maintained a prohaitiana, militant, very militant few. Very few intellectuals Dominicans maintain an independent position on this issue. That is, the Dominican historiography is characterized by responsibility, in the last 50 years, a group of Marxist intellectuals, some from other schools of thought, but most of the various streams, maintain a position prohaitiana. I think it's an answer to the problem of Trujillo and Trujillo. A good anti-Trujillo and a leftist intellectual in the 60's, 70's, especially in this period was a haitianófilo not coincide with the positions anti-Haitian and derechizantes of trujillismo.
By fall of the dictatorship of Trujillo and returning exiles in the Dominican society emerges an intellectual movement, whose theme is very different from Haiti as it was during the Trujillo dictatorship. But then to say that they are prohaitianos ... have to see. What they raised was restudy Dominican history in the sense that the heroism of Haiti to defeat the French and star in the first revolution of the slaves for freedom was a true epic. And that also managed to free the slaves on the English side. I would not define these intelelectuales as prohaitianos, I think they did an objective approach to reality.
In 1801 and 1805, when carried out invasions of Haiti, there are extraordinary events for the slaves, but also produce truly dramatic events that have not been adequately studied today ... Lo de Santiago and Moca.
And across the country in the South, if we refer to the massacres carried out. They are only more or less documented the killings in Moca and Santiago, but the rest of the Cibao, and the South, there was genocide.
But as I think it is totally inappropriate for the past few days American journalist talks about the massacre of Haitians of 37, when analyzing the current situation of Haitians here, I also speak today of the unlawful killing of Moca and Santiago. That is past history. The problem now is very different. It is a problem, essentially, a large number of Haitian workers take jobs away from the Dominican labor, which does not allow wages to rise. It is an economic problem that delayed the worsening agricultural mechanization, as admitted by the World Bank, the income distribution. is a typical phenomenon of a large amount of labor that comes to a country and produces these economic effects as Costa Rica has resulted in mass migration of Nicaraguans in the violent politics of Nicaragua in the 80's. In that sense it should be seen as an economic phenomenon.
What does the Haitian massive presence in the country?
I think the Haitian, like all migrants, the first thing is to mingle with the citizens of the country where it has moved. The first thing a Haitian who comes here is to learn English before arriving probably belonged to a Christian religion, not necessarily Catholic and dominicaniza very fast, as the Dominican Republic who migrates, either the U.S. or Europe, tend to learn the language, either English or Italian. I do not see it as a cultural problem, especially when we are a society mulatta; not see this as an ethnic or cultural problem, I see it essentially as an economic problem.
normal migration in the history of mankind.
With regard to Haiti, the country of Haiti, a country is it feasible?
Today is a failed state, but it has been throughout its history. There was a time when Haiti was stronger economically, politically, socially and culturally to the Dominican Republic. That happened in the 20 and 30 of the twentieth century. By any criterion Haiti had a more important-and Port-au-Prince was more cosmopolitan than Santo Domingo to date. Give a simple example to reflect that.
The apostolic nuncio to the island was in Port-au-Prince until as late as 1943, was competing, because Haiti was more important to the Vatican. In the 43 was a messenger who settled here. American ministers on the island were not in Santo Domingo, the first five were in Port au Prince because they were competing and it took about twenty years until he settled here. One sees the coffee export statistics of Haiti and the Dominican exports compared to then. Were higher. The Dominicans went to Port au Prince to check with doctors.
The question is why did that change in the relative importance of the two countries. There are some who see it as an essentially ecological problem. The destruction of Haiti's agricultural base. Others see it as a cultural difference. I put great emphasis on environmental problem: too intensive cultivation Haitian soil by the French during the colonial period led to a situation when the earth ceased to be fertile and this reduced the capacity of economic development in Haiti.
But that does not mean that the Haitian economy is not viable. Is unfeasible from an agricultural standpoint, but Haiti can become the Hong Kong of the Caribbean, has the cheapest labor, if it engages in import fabric and garment manufacturing, for example, we win them all. In fact Haitian textile exports was over the Dominican Republic until 1986, Haiti had more tourists to the Dominican Republic in the years 20, 30, 40 and 50 of the twentieth century. With political stability could have a thriving economy based in the assembly for export, tourism and remittances, which today represent 40 percent of their gross national product, much higher than here, in relative terms.
Do you rule out the existence of an international plot by the United States, France and other powers to the merger of the two countries?
That is a myth invented Balaguer, who never proved. Instead, there is a policy in both North America and Europe, not to welcome immigrants. Increasingly more restrictive migration, no matter the source, and is more restrictive now after what has happened in France. The United States has done is to have made the Island of Hispaniola in parentheses. U.S. Patrol Boats in the Canal de la Mona and the Canal de los Vientos to avoid migration out of the two countries, and that's what is causing is that Haitians can only move to two places, the Bahamas, which already constitute 30 percent of the population, and the Dominican Republic, where I believe that one of every two people is Haitian or of Haitian descent.
are nine million, so we have 600 or 700 thousand Haitian or of Haitian descent. The Haitians were hidden in the Dominican bateyes for generations, now not only in the bateyes. And most are not in the bateyes. The Dominican economy is no longer an agricultural economy is a service economy, urban, and then the Haitians go where there is employment, urban centers.
talk about other topics, Bernard, Haiti is not only our interest. You studied economics at Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, and I understand that these studies were performed in 1955. If you were born in 38 then in 55 was a boy of 17 years.
I did my undergraduate studies in three and half years instead of the normal four, because I was summer to study. I graduated. In 59 he was 21.
How old were you did your first plane to fly alone?
"Without the family?
Solo. 'I'm going to that site. " At that age it is independent.
At 17 or 18 years.
Can you say that you were Trujillo or already envisioned a broader political thought?
At school, here Santo Domingo, had a newspaper, and nobody asked me what I wrote an article for Trujillo, because one was almost mesmerized by the situation. But since I left everything changed. The first day I went to college abroad, my first class, which was political science, there was talk of democracy and dictatorship, and in that moment I began to remove the scales from their eyes. The first book I began to read in college political science studies was the "1984" by Orwell, who was a violent criticism against Stalinism and I realized that I came from a situation like that. While I was in the country Trujillo, but Trujillo up to 17 years.
course, was normal.
was normal. I joined the Dominican Party, that of Trujillo, at age 16.
His father was a leader Trujillo.
My father, like Peña Batlle, had a bias against the regime, but very discreet, until 38 when Virgilio Díaz Ordóñez went to see him and told him he was going to happen next Trujillo. My father passed and was offered a diplomatic post.
You were advisory Central Bank.
During the administration of Diogenes Fernandez for six years, then was a member of the Monetary Board, and then governor, for a total of 16 years.
When did the Central Bank?
In sixty y. .. In 65. I got my first job in government in January 62. The Trujillo went on November 61. I arrived at 59 and obviously did not interest me at all work for the government and went to work at Pedernales with Alcoa, as an accountant. Of the three brothers the only one who was taken prisoner was me.
What did come from the United States, and London, "because you had been in London to go to Pedernales to work?
Well I had my degree in economics and in that time the only use for an economist was obtained by the government, and I was not going to work in the government of Trujillo. Then I accepted accounting in Cabo Rojo. It was almost a kind of exile. He came to the capital every two weeks.
His first intellectual activity was in the field of economics.
My first newspaper article should have been in October or November of 1961 ... right before or after Ramfis left. It was a letter to the editor published Germain Emilio Ornes me in the Caribbean by suggesting that the obelisk engraved with the names of the victims of Trujillo. Years later used this idea to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington.
What did the revolt of 1965? Where were you?
I was economic advisor to Diogenes Fernandez, Central Bank Governor. He took his foreign civil war. I played a discreet role, but important in those days. I ordered a few bank employees knew the combination to the vault of the Central Bank would leave their villages. That way if a government wanted to use the bank's money had to blow the vault.
Antonio Imbert's government was sustained because the military could afford. If there was no money could not be sustained and that money was in the Central Bank since the Reserve was in the constitutional area.
A common theme during the war of 1965 was the physical integrity of the banks, which were concentrated in the Calle Isabel La Católica, around the corner Mercedes.
No bank was touched by the constitutionalists during the civil war, nor any foreign company. There was the Pan American, the cable and the Dominican Telephone Company, which continued to offer their services. This was in the streets March 30 and there the constitutional listened to telephone conversations. But they did not realize it was Lyndon Johnson who was talking to Bennet here. I I have these recordings.
course, as Johnson knew they were listening to talk in a way that was not quite obvious what the topic under discussion. Some constitutionalists have told me that yes, they realized it was something important but did not realize it was Lyndon Johnson himself. I'm playing in a forthcoming book all those conversations of Lyndon Johnson have to do with the Dominican situation. Johnson ordered him to record their conversations and topics are now declassified. I bought all they have to do with the Dominican Republic and I've been posting little by little. And some went in my book on Balaguer, and others in a book that I send to print in the coming days.
Balaguer Do you sympathize with?
never shared the ideas of Balaguer. I accepted an honorary position as director of the Museum of Man, without pay, by reason of the death of the architect José Antonio Caro.
You were the first director of the museum, I have understood.
No. The first one was José Antonio Caro, who died in 1977. I agreed to be the director of the Museum of Man in early 1977. That was the charge that he accepted to Balaguer. I was also a member of the Monetary Board.
Why did you accept a charge Balaguer? What were the relationships policies with an intellectual system in its class?
Al vacancy in the position of Director of the Museum of Man and be such a position without pay, for José Antonio Caro received no salary, and because I liked archeology, I thought I could make a contribution an area where the government did not exert much political influence. In fact they were about eight months during Balaguer's government and continued after four years with the government of Antonio Guzmán.
During my three statues were placed in front of the building of the Museum of Man, the Sebastian Lemba, Enriquillo and Padre Las Casas, which are the symbols of Dominican democracy. I was criticized a lot, said that the Lemba corresponded to the figure of Peña Gómez. The important thing is to be maintained, are still there. Was only a museum of archeology and also became a museum of ethnology, emphasizing the African roots and the whole process of mestizaje. All his museum that is not pre-Columbian archaeological work was mine.
Have you been following this museum?
Not really. I have dedicated myself more to the story. Study two periods of Dominican history, which are the two extremes: the Columbian and the twentieth century. But the archaeologists have left. I left it in the sense that they do not write, nor public, but I go to the archaeological conference in the Caribbean. My archaeological collection, one of the top four in the country, donated to the Centro León in my hometown.
His tenure as governor of the Central Bank was not ideal, in my opinion.
I think it was good, what happens is that coincided with the worst economy in Latin America. When Mexico announced in 1982 he could not pay its foreign debt began what was called "the lost decade." Seventeen Latin American countries simultaneously had to sign agreements with the International Monetary Fund.
economic policy that I established at this time is the same that has been followed so far. I found the weight with two parities, the official and free market, had official foreign exchange fees and interest rates were set by the Central Bank. The parallel market was approaching the officer and established a single market, free and floating, which is the last until now.
Are you cheaper than a historian? How to relate economy vocations history and anthropology or archeology? How do you define that way?
There are different types of economists. There are economists who actually are econometricians, working with mathematical models. I move closer to the kind of economist that existed in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. John Maynard Keynes was part of the Bloomsbury group. He was always with novelists and writers. Was a pianist, but also the great economist of the twentieth century. Was an economist in the social sciences in a broad sense, as was Adam Smith, as Marx himself, who covered in the social sciences, economics, archeology, history and sociology.
What is your pension as a former Central Bank governor?
I waited until he was 65 years old and until now had no position in the public sector and in 1999 I received my pension. Its value is determined by a mathematical formula based on years of service. I had fifteen years in the Central Bank and others in the public sector, including professor UASD. Unlike others who did not wait for age 65 and continue working in the government, I waited to be away from work in government.
Tell me something about his work as ambassador in Washington.
wrote a book which are my memories of ambassador. I am the second person of Latin American origin who has written a book of his memoirs as an ambassador in that city, a book was widely read in Washington. I accepted the position for two years and I stayed for two years. It was a very interesting stage for me. I do not like to live outside my country but I took it mainly because my wife died in September 1996 after suffering from cancer; I needed a life change and left the country for two years.
Bernardo, Dominican Bibliophile Society is in crisis. You were president of that institution. As president of the Cultural Foundation, how possible to see the possible closure of the Bibliophiles?
closing I hope not. The crisis comes from two factors. There are many books that needed to be reproduced, Dominican cultural issues, but as time passes and published, if the rule is that no living people publish books, then the availability of good quality books that deserve to be reproduced decreases , that's the truth. That is, the classics are so many Dominicans. And this creates a problem of quality of texts for publication. The second factor is that with the devaluation the cost of books has risen. Also the system to bring the book to bibliophiles and charge, has become more difficult. The charges from the sale of books have decreased. I think Dominican Bibliophile Society should remain, I believe that there are still books that should be played. Perhaps it requires some kind of institutional support.
what circumstances you accepted the direction of the newspaper El Caribe, and why he resigned? Hopefully you want to reveal any reason a conflict, causing the defection of newspaper editor as the Caribbean, an economic group as powerful as was the owner of that newspaper.
Why I came to lead the Caribbean? Because since 1962, almost continuously, I've been a columnist for newspapers. I have included many of these articles in books. There are hundreds of articles. I had this vocation of writer. They offered me that opportunity, he had returned from Washington and I used to write. I signed a contract for two years and two years left him as soon as it was fulfilled. Some months before the deadline I did not want to renew it. To this was that I committed. It is a work of 24 hours a day, seven days a week. My ability to write books was zero in that period and I had material to write books. I was exhausted having to spend the entire day driving the newspaper. In fact, just months after leaving the newspaper took a book that won the Leon Jimenes Book Fair, which is the book on Balaguer.
A newspaper is like a fish rotting within hours of leaving the water. The newspaper the next day, and not worth anything. I want to play a more permanent and I think I do with my books. And I'm still writing articles. I say it is common for writers who are set to run newspapers and have to handle the matter as a company and then not have time to read or write.
dirigen.Yo There are directors who do not when I get into something, I get to direct.
I've seen different figures on the number of books you have written.
I know they're over forty, still do not know if they reach fifty, perhaps out of this office we can tell, because they are all here. But I think there are 45 or 47. You have to ask what a book. For me that stands alone. Because there are small pamphlets.
What do you do at the Global Foundation?
there I have no office, no parking, no secretary, no. But from here drive a Dominican studies program that basically promotes discussions, invite people from outside, holding a series of gatherings on topics of interest Dominican. We brought Lowental Abraham, who gave a lecture on U.S. policy, another person came to talk about the convergence of the laws of free zones. In short, I take care of five or six conferences to promote the year.
What can we expect now out of ink?
I just finished a book entitled "The Communist threat in the war in April. Myth or Reality?" It is a compilation of all the information you received Lyndon Johnson, which led him to commit the mistake of ordering the invasion of Santo Domingo, and compare the information offered on the alleged communist control of the revolution on April 28 with what actually happening here at base, also, a series of interviews with many of those people mentioned as controlling the revolution and still are alive. I interviewed members of the three leftist parties and people of the PRD, constitutional officers and soldiers.
What he says of his only novel "Domini Canes"?
my book is the most widely sold because it is used in schools. We are trying to see if it becomes a play, because when I wrote what I had in mind as a play.
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